Journalists have an endless stream of tales to inform. Nicholas Nugent, who switched off his audio suite within the BBC as a broadcast journalist in 1999, continues to enthral listeners (in small conversations) and readers (of his seven books and the once-in-a-while newspaper column). Not with the “when-I-was-there” style, nevertheless. In his elegant nation home, overlooking farmlands and hills in Somerset, U.Ok., Mr. Nugent, creator of The Spice Ports: Mapping the Origins of International Spice Commerce (2024), is at residence with the world. As a overseas correspondent, he has reported from throughout Asia, is an everyday customer to India for the reason that early days of Indira Gandhi’s premiership, and has authored Rajiv Gandhi: Son of a Dynasty (1990). And all alongside, he meticulously discerned the a number of impacts that arose from the spice age when the naval powers in Europe (the place he hails from) have been in aggressive pursuit of those now ubiquitous flavouring brokers within the Orient (the place he labored as a overseas correspondent).
His 288-page ebook, with illustrations and historical maps, revealed by the British Library within the U.Ok. and Brandeis College Press within the U.S., unravels the worldwide affect of the spice commerce. He additionally tells the tales of how this chase for zing gave to Mumbai and New York their current stature and offers a cameo that includes Madras. Two of his 10 chapters are on India’s west coast ports. The Malabar coast, he mentioned, was one of many first locations that the “Europeans latched onto as a supply of oriental spices”. In an hour-long interview to The Hindu, Mr. Nugent connects the dots of how the a number of acts throughout the hunt for spices within the late-medieval interval led as much as the trendy world. It began with historical mariners, the celebs that guided them, map-making, and the monarchs who supported them. Excerpts:
Could I begin together with your curiosity in maps? Journalists are excited by a whole lot of issues. Why maps?
It was partly inherited from my father, who liked maps and lived in several elements of the world, and partly as I’ve travelled lots. I’ve hardly stopped travelling since I first went to India aged 18. If one is excited by geography and locations around the globe, that instantly leads one to maps. I’m additionally excited by historical past, so when you put the 2 collectively, what you’re seeing round my home are vintage, historic, and early maps.
What I like about early maps is that they’re so inaccurate. How did we get to the age we’re at this time when maps should have a excessive diploma of accuracy? I like eager about the age when, for instance, early mariners didn’t actually know how you can get from one place to a different. They used the celebs, and solely in, say, the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries did mariners report again and making maps grew to become an trade in Europe and fairly presumably in China as effectively. It’s fairly onerous to know. That’s the story I’ve advised in The Spice Ports.
Pioneers, like Vasco da Gama and Christopher Columbus, didn’t have maps; they gave rise to the trade that created them. It’s these maps that I like as a result of I just like the notion of amassing the fabric for the maps, and once I purchase the maps, I prefer to try to learn the story or the historical past that’s behind them.
On the geography as effectively?
Geography, in fact, to level out the inaccuracies on the similar time.
There are three undercurrents that may be inferred out of your ebook: transport, commerce, particularly in spices, and colonisation. How would you triangulate them?
Properly, I completely agree with you that they go hand in hand. One fed the opposite, because it have been. I targeting the maritime commerce, to begin with, and the way did ship builders create the flexibility to journey lengthy distances, so I have a tendency to come back to it from that viewpoint. I might take a look at the three components that gave rise to maritime commerce barely otherwise.
First, shipbuilding. You needed to have the know-how and certainly the supplies to construct ships. The best way I advised the story, the Venetians have been dominating shipbuilding in Europe, till all of the sudden the Portuguese have been constructing higher ships. After which they misplaced out to the Dutch. So, the primary ingredient is shipbuilding.
The second is maps. ‘Are you aware the place you’re going?’ And that additionally helped the Portuguese as a result of they sailed across the southern tip of Africa, proving that the Indian Ocean was not surrounded by land. I can present you a map from the yr earlier than Vasco da Gama sailed that I’ve. It reveals the Indian Ocean fully surrounded by land, and even 50 years (after that), maps have been produced exhibiting land throughout the Indian Ocean. Now, if Vasco da Gama had trusted that 1496 map, he wouldn’t have gotten there, would he? He by no means would have set sail. So, map-making was the second ingredient.
And the third was know-how, like astrolabes and compasses, and the technical aspect of discovering your approach.
So the place does the business curiosity are available in right here? Why spices? Was it serendipity or was it a felt demand?
Properly, I’ll inform you what I believe occurred, and keep in mind we’re speaking about European commerce with Asia. What I believe occurred was that within the place of birth (of the commerce routes), individuals have been getting fairly excited by spices, by flavouring.
Let’s face it, cooking, wherever, was fairly bland within the fifteenth Century and spices spiced it up, actually. Made it extra engaging. So, let’s assume that was occurring in India, in what we now name Indonesia, and maybe somewhere else in Asia, and a few sensible mariner, both from India or from the Center East, was transport these spices over to the Arabian Peninsula and the Crimson Sea. And from there they have been being trans-shipped by means of ports like Alexandria, and the Venetians picked them up from there as a result of, having tried it as soon as, they discovered there was a marketplace for it in Europe.
Venice was the primary marketplace for spices in Europe. That’s why the Venetians kicked off long-distance commerce in spices coming to Europe and made some huge cash out of them. As islanders, Venetians had to make use of ships to carry even their primary wants from the neighbouring land; spices got here from additional afield. Venice was additionally an ideal shipbuilding nation with fairly a protracted historical past, particularly for combating the Crusades towards Muslims within the Center East, so it’s fairly apparent to me why the Venetians began the method off by trans-shipping spices from Alexandria to Venice.
By the point the Portuguese from Lisbon discovered their approach across the Cape, they bypassed the Center East and took over from the Venetians. That they had an enhanced understanding of geography, therefore map-making, they usually discovered their solution to the sources of spices, initially to India, as a result of even spices that got here from additional East have been dropped at India. There was lot of quick termism till Vasco Da Gama confirmed the best way. And the story goes on from there.
Although you discuss concerning the previous, there’s a ring of the up to date in it, such because the emergence of provide chains, entrepot commerce, and trans-shipment. How would you place the ports alongside the Malabar coast? Have been they for trans-shipment or ports of provide, or a little bit of each?
Properly, each, positively. It’s no accident that Vasco da Gama ended up on the Malabar Coast as a result of that’s the place the currents and the winds took ships that got here from Europe. Happily for them, it was the house of spices. Kerala, even at this time, is wealthy in spices, so it was an introduction to oriental spices.
In a port like Cochin, you could possibly additionally get spices that got here from additional afield from Ceylon (now Sri Lanka), the place there was higher cinnamon than what was cultivated in Kerala, however most particularly ginger. I’m undecided if ginger is indigenous to India, however ginger was definitely coming from China. Spices that have been positively introduced in from additional East have been clove, nutmeg, and mace, they usually have been all dropped at India. I can’t inform you precisely the place, however Cochin appears to characteristic fairly prominently as a supply of spices as a result of it produced its personal from the Kerala — or Travancore — hinterland. The Malabar coast was one of many first locations that Europeans latched onto as a supply of oriental spices.
Let’s journey additional north to Goa. It’s remembered extra for colonisation. What was the Portuguese curiosity in Goa?
Properly, I believe you place your finger on it as a result of Goa is just not, so far as I do know, spice-producing territory. So why would they go there? And the story of the Portuguese seize of Goa, which is what it was, appeared to be a call taken by Affonso de Albuquerque — the Portuguese viceroy of Malabar, or regardless of the terminology was on the time. He was given a short to broaden the early Portuguese Empire, and he latched on to Goa as a result of it’s a wonderful port. I imply, we’re already speaking about colonisation, aren’t we? He fought and defeated (the forces loyal to the Bijapur monarch, Yusuf Adil Shah), successfully taking on not simply Goa however the commerce in spices between India and the Arabian Peninsula.
You have been proper to introduce colonisation as a result of I consider this was an important stage in colonisation. In different phrases, European takeover of territories in distant locations to which they’d no proper. However it was energy, wasn’t it? It was energy, they usually have been making a living. They have been assembly a requirement for spices in Europe. Additionally, it was the Portuguese getting one up on the Venetians. In the end, it was the European demand for spices that appeared to drive the commerce and Goa was, in a approach, unintentional. However it grew to become the vital foothold of the Portuguese in India they usually exploited it by transferring in and taking on and capturing the spice commerce, each the spices which have been indigenous to India and that have been being trans-shipped from additional east.
Let’s take a look at one other colonising nation, France. So, the Dutch, the Portuguese, and the French have been combating for the Indian Ocean. How did this play out and when did the English are available in?
I might painting it barely otherwise as a result of the French have been very small in Asian phrases, however sure, they have been competing with the Portuguese, the Dutch, the English, and even the Danish for a bit little bit of territory in India. As is well-known, the French had a battle the place they’d a rivalry with the English, particularly over Mauritius, they usually ended up with small quantities of territory, primarily in southern India however they have been by no means huge merchants with India.
Their colonial historical past is far more to do with elements of West Africa, and certainly Indo-China – Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos – which got here a lot later. The most important early French imperial involvement in Asia was in Mauritius, and certainly, that was fairly profitable, particularly with sugar commerce. I introduced Mauritius into the ebook as a result of it’s fairly vital by way of the spices being trans-shipped (and) in addition they made an ideal factor out of the sugar trade in the end. However additionally it is related to colonial historical past in southern India, particularly the stand-off between the English and the French over Madras and Pondicherry (for 3 years, which ended with the Treaty of Aix-la-Chappelle in 1748, after which the English regained possession of Madras.) You even have an fascinating chapter on Bombay, what’s now known as Mumbai.
You even have an fascinating chapter on Bombay, what’s now known as Mumbai.
Properly, when you’re colonial historical past of India, you possibly can’t however take an in depth curiosity in Bombay, as I proceed to consider it. It was successively dominated by the Portuguese, who didn’t make it pay. It was a bunch of seven islands in Portuguese instances. They constructed a Catholic Church on every of the islands, however they didn’t get a lot else out of it.
In a curious historic occasion, (in 1662) it was a part of the dowry from the Portuguese to the English on the wedding of Charles II to Catherine of Braganza in Portugal. In order that’s how the English acquired Bombay, once more, iniquitous – one European nation provides this port to a different nation. However let’s put in a very good phrase for the English as a result of they made it right into a metropolis, they made it into a serious port, they usually made it pay. You could possibly argue that Bombay wouldn’t be the Mumbai of at this time if it hadn’t been for English business curiosity in not simply spices, however by this time, many different issues and colonisation in India took off huge time.
They began in Surat however they dabbled in Bombay and Madras. After which Bombay grew to become huge. However finally, Calcutta grew to become the largest place. So English historical past of colonisation of India is about actually these 4 main locations.
If I’ll cross the globe once more, to the formation of the corporate, to how selections have been taken in a faraway place concerning the motion of commodities, formalising what we name in trendy phrases, the (joint-stock) firm. Might you elaborate on these developments?
When the Portuguese made an enormous factor of long-distance commerce, it was financed by the monarch, as did the Spanish. They funded these expeditions, gained the revenue, and presumably paid the sailors a bit bit, however the giant (share of the) revenue accrued to the monarch of the time.
The Dutch have been the dominant pressure earlier than the English. They successfully invented the joint-stock firm, which meant that anyone might make investments, and anyone might declare a share of the revenue, which was paid in spices. So, you place in your Guilders, or regardless of the forex was or your little bit of silver; when the ship got here again, if the ship got here again — not all survived, you see — then you definately received a bunch of nutmeg that you could possibly take to market and promote for forex fairly efficiently
Additionally they launched the inventory market. So, when you received a share in an expedition and also you wanted cash in a rush, you went to the market, which was the marina, the waterfront, and also you bought your share. That was the origin of inventory markets. Additionally they launched banking as a result of it’s all tied up, so the Dutch actually pioneered these three issues. By the way, newspapers additionally originated round this time within the Netherlands. So, Amsterdam was key to all these issues.
The Dutch and the English had began buying and selling long-distance about the identical time, and initially Queen Elizabeth I of England was the main investor, fairly just like the Portuguese and the Spanish monarchs had been. However then she gave a Constitution to the East India Firm. So, in impact, they have been across the similar time because the Dutch however simply after them. They have been following the identical notion of constructing the funding of long-distance commerce open to all. You’ll say that it’s the introduction of capitalism.
Might you say that the uncooked supplies from the Far East and its demand for them within the West have been the dad and mom of contemporary capitalism, so to say?
Each trendy capitalism and trendy worldwide transport commerce. They’re each the means for doing it. You could possibly take this additional and say democratisation, within the sense of taking energy from the monarch and giving it to the bizarre individuals, or at the least an elite, a rich elite. However sure, I believe you’re making completely the fitting connections.
Early oriental commerce and particularly spices, however not completely spices, as a result of tea and occasional, and later rubber, are a part of the story. Early commerce in commodities gave rise to the transport trade and likewise gave rise to the technique of financing it and the entire banking construction.
You could possibly take a step again and say even forex, since you wanted cash, you wanted one thing to purchase your items with, and both you shipped one thing out and traded it, otherwise you purchased it with items of silver. The Venetians used Ducats for instance. You needed to have some type of forex or commodity the East needed within the early days.
Would it not be the case that it was early oriental commerce that gave rise to the trendy globalisation?
That’s a barely better declare than I might make. I’m solely presenting the Orient and oriental spices as one instance as a result of, for all I do know, there have been different issues. I’ve already talked about espresso. And, initially, rubber as effectively. So, when you take the phrase ‘oriental’ out, I will surely agree that commerce in primary commodities was the early stage in long-distance worldwide commerce.
And that additionally goes to a different fascinating side that you simply contact upon, which readers can be shocked to see in a ebook on spices and ports — concerning the Regulation of the Seas… how the seas have been regulated throughout this ‘spice age’.
You’re recognizing all the important thing issues that I’ve tried to carry into this story. I might argue that the legal guidelines of the ocean originated in Malacca in Malaysia, as a result of they’d a system of commerce that they tried to refine intimately as buying and selling guidelines. The Dutch have been then in command of Malacca, and a Dutchman Hugo Grotius, the originator of legal guidelines of the ocean actually, based mostly it on the Malaccan system.
The title of the time period in Malay is hukum laut or sea regulation. Grotius was the person most related to drawing up early legal guidelines of the ocean. Earlier than that, it was a free-for-all. I’ve an image (one of many a number of maps and illustrations that line the partitions of his home) of the Dutch and the Portuguese combating for management of Cochin. Battle was the early regulation of the ocean. Grotius’s 1625 treatise, De Jure Belli ac Pacis (On the Regulation of Battle and Peace), has a greater declare to be the origin of legal guidelines of the ocean than virtually anything.
I don’t wish to go deep into sea piracy however there may be that join there because it ties into the function of the state…
Piracy is a really curious idea. Who’re these buccaneers who come from distant lands and attempt to make declare on what’s produced there? However I believe you’re referring to the out-and-out brigands who pounced on the ships coming into sure harbours. They have been very energetic within the west of India, the place commerce was vigorous with West Asia. Within the Arab world, piracy was completely rife and a part of discovering your approach was attempting to keep away from the pirates.
However these are crusing ships, so that you additionally wanted to know concerning the winds as a result of it’s solely the wind that may get you there with out your maps, your navigational devices, or your powered vessels. Wind was the facility. Can I say one thing extra about wind?
Sure. Please.
Wind was how the Dutch took over from the Portuguese as a result of they have been the nice windmill specialists. They constructed windmills. As soon as they drained the land for the early Dutch individuals — as a really small nation, they wanted someplace that wasn’t waterlogged for individuals to reside — they tailored windmills for different functions, one in all which was to create sawmills pushed by wind. They have been slicing wooden by wind energy. Simply think about they constructed their ships extra cheaply and faster than the Portuguese they usually took over the lengthy distance (commerce).
We might imagine wind energy is an invention of latest years to create electrical energy, however the Dutch might drive a sawmill very powerfully from wind and construct ships that would defeat the Portuguese within the japanese commerce. In case you don’t consider me, go north of Amsterdam, and you may see that there’s nonetheless in use a repurposed windmill that may be a sawmill. And also you go into that sawmill, and also you suppose this will need to have electrical energy working it as a result of it’s so fierce, so efficient, however it’s solely pushed by wind.
Your ebook is just not solely about transferring commodities. There’s a constant subtext on society and people. Might you discuss concerning the interval and its huge names?
Sure, effectively, I’ve tried to inform the oriental spice story alongside what else was occurring in these international locations. We’ve talked about how spices gave rise to banking and inventory markets. Right here’s one other instance: the Dutch Golden Age with its well-known artists. Is it a coincidence that that started on the similar time that the spice commerce began within the late sixteenth century?
On the scientific sphere, two different issues occurred within the Netherlands: one was the examine of anatomy which options, because it occurs, in Rembrandt’s work. So, there was funding in that kind of scientific analysis. Anatomy and surgical procedure superior to a excessive diploma within the Netherlands.
The opposite factor is the lens. Now the Dutch are good at sprucing diamonds however it began with sprucing lenses. They invented the telescope and the microscope, so far as my historic analysis suggests. The telescope was low-level till it was taken to Venice, and Galileo picked up the telescope, promoting it to sailors. They have been the early customers of telescopes but it surely was a scientific growth within the Netherlands that gave rise to it. So, every little thing goes spherical in circles.
I’m saying that commerce and the earnings from commerce gave rise to the scientific analysis and exploration, in addition to the humanities, particularly portray and literature. All of them flourished when the nation was making a living or individuals within the nation have been making a living from the spice commerce. It’s no coincidence. How did Europe get wealthy lengthy earlier than Asia? As a result of they discovered a buying and selling system of bringing in commodities and making earnings, and I’m speaking huge earnings when you’ve received mace, which comes from the nutmeg plant, it’s the outer core of the nutmeg. The Dutch have been at one stage making one thing like 3,000 per cent revenue on mace introduced from the East Indies to Amsterdam. Gosh!
So, we might return to the scenario of three issues, at the least, that have been generated by long-distance commerce, initially in spices. One was the humanities typically; one other was science, and the third one, which we’ve already talked about, was banking and inventory markets. All have been intently associated, so we can’t actually take a look at maritime commerce in isolation. It gave rise to so many different issues.
I had in thoughts Issac Newton as effectively…
The scientific experience moved from Galileo (in what’s now Italy) to Christian Huygens within the Netherlands after which to Isaac Newton in England. There’s a scientific line that in my ebook begins with Copernicus (in Poland), who first proclaimed that the Earth rotates across the Solar fairly than the opposite approach spherical. Galileo popularised this concept and received into huge hassle with the Catholic Church whereas he was making a living promoting telescopes to the sailors. Galileo was a really vital determine.
Then it moved to Huygens within the Netherlands, who was a pioneer of lenses. After which it got here to Isaac Newton, who famously found gravity. This was the time when London was taking on from Amsterdam as the large buying and selling centre and Newton, curiously, having made a bit of cash by his discovery (of gravity) and instructing at Cambridge College, then invested his cash into additional buying and selling ventures, which he didn’t do significantly effectively, after which grew to become the pinnacle of the Royal Mint. He’s an fascinating historic determine which explains Britain joined that scientific pedigree. However Britain joined in one other approach: John Harrison, who invented the chronometer. In different phrases, the best way of telling the time at sea, which was completely essential to navigation.
The Prime Meridian, Greenwich…
Then Greenwich took over because the because the centre of the world, you could possibly argue. So sure, there’s that scientific undercurrent going there. I’m positive I might point out another names, however we’ve received the important thing ones there which are concerned.
I’m going to stick with names for some extra time as a result of your ebook additionally provides the readers ideas for additional interconnections. You name your opening chapter, ‘The Retailers of Venice’, in impact, giving commerce a persona based mostly on Shakespeare’s well-known play. What different interconnections with literary figures do you point out?
I check with Bertolt Brecht’s Twentieth-Century play, The Lifetime of Galileo, which brings out the soured relations between the church and science after Galileo’s discovery. The opposite two writers I might consider are a lot, a lot much less well-known however in addition they are related to the general story.
One is a Dutchman in Indonesia, Eduard Douwes Dekker, who wrote beneath the pseudonym Multatuli. He was a coloniser, however he additionally helped carry an finish to the fairly brutal type of commerce and colonisation that the Dutch exercised in Java, whereby the Dutch determined what the native farmers ought to develop and likewise determined how a lot they’d pay for it. I like his novel, Max Havelaar (1860), as a result of it modified the best way the Dutch operated.
And there’s one other novel which modified the best way the French operated in Mauritius and different colonies. Bernardin de Saint-Pierre’s novel, Paul et Virginie (1806), is a love story in addition to a satire which additionally argued towards slavery and for social justice. It received its place in French Literature, and it modified French colonial coverage in direction of Mauritius. I like books that both advised a part of the historical past story, or in these two circumstances, one for Indonesia and one for Mauritius, truly modified coverage.
Earlier than we conclude, I’d like to the touch upon the U.S. You additionally focus on Manhattan and Salem. What was the place of the U.S. within the provide chain?
Properly, the U.S. at the moment was a colony no totally different from India or Indonesia. It was a colony primarily of the English who have been buying and selling with North East America. I introduced it into my story for 2 causes. New York was not a spice port as such, so why have I introduced it in? For a really curious historic reality.
Bear in mind, the Dutch and the English have been huge rivals within the colonising enterprise. The Dutch had management of the East Indies or Malay Archipelago, they usually had management of what we now know because the Spice Islands. Roughly 1,000 islands that included the world’s sole supply of nutmeg and of cloves and mace, they usually have been laughing all the best way to the financial institution as a result of they have been making incredible earnings from these commodities in Amsterdam, however for one factor, nutmeg grew on eight islands and the Dutch solely had management of seven of them. And the English had management of the eighth. That broke the Dutch monopoly. The English have been getting out nutmeg and mace, and undermining the Dutch East India Firm, the VOC, (the Vereenigde Oost-Indische Compagnie) and their means to make revenue. So, they (the Dutch) have been fairly offended about this they usually have been having battles towards the English within the North Sea.
A Dutch raid on the naval port at Chatham in Kent in 1667 destroyed a whole lot of English warships, after which they received collectively and carved out a deal which concerned successfully swapping territory. By July 1667, the Dutch, because it occurred, had management of this one island, Pulau Run, within the nutmeg group of islands (Banda Islands). They’ve received their monopoly again or they thought they’d. In the meantime, on the opposite aspect of the world, the English had gained management of a chunk of territory that the Dutch had earlier than: the island of Manhattan, or at this time’s New York. They really received extra than simply the island, the entire New York hinterland! So, in 1667, the Dutch have been glad that they received their nutmeg monopoly again. The English have been glad that they’ve received New York. However frankly, the Dutch had not been making a revenue on it, like Bombay with the Portuguese, so who received the higher of the deal? Historical past reveals us that the English did fairly effectively on that deal.
I would say this isn’t a direct swap, and there was different territory concerned however the vital ones are Pulau Run within the Moluccas, a part of the Dutch-ruled East Indies, and Manhattan. Sadly for the Dutch, nutmeg had been transplanted by each the English and the French – nutmeg now grows in various different locations – so they’d misplaced their monopoly endlessly, however they didn’t know that on the time. That’s why New York options, due to this little bit of historical past.
Up the coast from New York in Massachusetts is a port known as Salem, well-known for its historical past of witches and the author Nathaniel Hawthorne, and far much less well-known for its early maritime commerce in peppercorn. The retailers of Salem constructed good ships, I consider they have been the primary to construct copper-bottomed ships which gave a lot better endurance, a metallic outer floor to the wooden. They sailed throughout the Atlantic Ocean across the Cape and throughout the Indian Ocean to Sumatra, the place they discovered a prepared commerce within the spice peppercorn. They have been rivals of the Dutch, however the People, as we will consider them, the Salem mariners went additional north, the place the Dutch didn’t have full management to the world we now know as Aceh. From there they have been getting most of their peppercorn.
Peppercorn, by the best way, is a spice that originates from India. But by the point we’re speaking about it had been transplanted to Sumatra, and the primary American millionaires have been the merchants of Salem. Outstanding! And , we’re speaking concerning the days when one port specialised in a single commodity. Salem received wealthy on peppercorn. I’m positive they introduced different issues within the ships however peppercorn is what introduced the earnings. Relatively like nutmeg did to Amsterdam.
Lastly, to attempt to tie all this up from the then to the now, these remind me of Adam Smith, whom you point out in your ebook as effectively.
Adam Smith roughly invented the examine of the social science of economics. And he was a critic of monopolies. He helps us perceive the story as a result of that’s what economics does at this time. We’re roughly pushed by notions of economics, and also you’ve already talked about the ‘provide chain’. Once I studied economics, it was all about how worth was decided by provide and demand. We owe Adam Smith credit score for serving to us perceive what was happening. He first used the time period ‘monopoly’ to clarify why sure types of commerce produce huge earnings, as a result of nobody else had received entry to it. And the story begins with the truth that nutmeg got here from solely eight small islands on this planet and clove comes from a distinct set of eight small islands. And the race begins there.